Hadron Collider repairs cost £14m

Twosheds
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From BBC Science & Environment:

Repairing the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) near Geneva will cost almost £14m ($21m) and "realistically" take until at next summer to start back up.

An electrical failure shut the £3.6bn ($6.6bn) machine down in September.

The European Organization for Nuclear Research (Cern) thought it would only be out of action until November but the damage was worse than expected.

It is hoped repairs will be completed by May or early June with the machine restarted at the end of June or later.

Cern spokesman James Gillies said: "If we can do it sooner, all well and good. But I think we can do it realistically (in) early summer."

The LHC was built to smash protons together at huge speeds, recreating conditions moments after the Big Bang, and scientists hope it will shed light on fundamental questions in physics.

The fault occurred just nine days after it was turned on with Cern blaming the shutdown on the failure of a single, badly soldered electrical connection in one of its super-cooled magnet sections.

The collider operates at temperatures colder than outer space for maximum efficiency and experts needed to gradually warm the damaged section to assess it.

"Now the sector is warm so they are able to go in and physically look at each of the interconnections," Mr Gillies told Associated Press.

The cost of the work will fall within the Cern's existing budget.Dr Lyn Evans, the Welsh-born project director has called the collider "a discovery machine, the most sophisticated scientific instrument of our time."

John Clark
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Hadron Collider repairs cost £14m

Thank you Keith

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tullio
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RE: The fault occurred

Quote:


The fault occurred just nine days after it was turned on with Cern blaming the shutdown on the failure of a single, badly soldered electrical connection in one of its super-cooled magnet sections.


They should have X-rayed all their weldings. I know this because I have an aluminium welder diploma besides a laurea in theoretical physics.
Tullio

Chris S
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RE: They should have

Quote:
They should have X-rayed all their weldings.

Apparently it was a soldered joint that failed.

Quote:
I know this because I have an aluminium welder diploma besides a laurea in theoretical physics.

TIG?

Waiting for Godot & salvation :-)

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You'd think they'd have got it right by now

Rod
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RE: RE: The fault

Message 88490 in response to message 88488

Quote:
Quote:


The fault occurred just nine days after it was turned on with Cern blaming the shutdown on the failure of a single, badly soldered electrical connection in one of its super-cooled magnet sections.


They should have X-rayed all their weldings. I know this because I have an aluminium welder diploma besides a laurea in theoretical physics.
Tullio

You would think that would be a given... considering the cryrogenic temps the component would be operating. I remember all the failures in the early space program that were blamed on bad solder joints.. you usually learn that lesson when you have to build more than one..:-)

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Dagorath
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RE: RE: RE: The fault

Message 88491 in response to message 88490

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


The fault occurred just nine days after it was turned on with Cern blaming the shutdown on the failure of a single, badly soldered electrical connection in one of its super-cooled magnet sections.


They should have X-rayed all their weldings. I know this because I have an aluminium welder diploma besides a laurea in theoretical physics.
Tullio

You would think that would be a given... considering the cryrogenic temps the component would be operating. I remember all the failures in the early space program that were blamed on bad solder joints.. you usually learn that lesson when you have to build more than one..:-)

I built pressure vessels for years and have had thousands of my welds X-rayed. Some joint configurations just are not amenable to X-raying, which means you can X-ray the heck out of them but you ain't gonna see defects if there are any. And some defects, de-laminations for example, aren't visible in the pics even if the joint configuration is very amenable to X-ray.

BTW, everybody calls it "X-ray" but it's most often gamma radiation from strontium and iridium sources in the welding industry, don't know about electronics and soldering.

tullio
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RE: RE: They should have

Message 88492 in response to message 88489

Quote:
Quote:
They should have X-rayed all their weldings.

Apparently it was a soldered joint that failed.

Quote:
I know this because I have an aluminium welder diploma besides a laurea in theoretical physics.

TIG?


TIG and MIG but I am told today there is a better method. My diploma was obtained in 1980 at Istituto Sperimentale Metalli Leggeri in Novara. I agree with Dagorath, most inspections are performed with portable gamma ray sources.
I remember using a Co-60 phial to get neutrons out of a beryllium target. The neutrons were to calibrate a bubble chamber neutron detector we were building at the Istituto di Fisica Sperimentale in Trieste under contract with the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. Being a theoretical physics student, I was given a few germanium transistors and the task to modify its electronics from vacuum tubes. I remember soldering and testing a resonant circuit. Happy days!

Mike Hewson
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Substantial temperature

Substantial temperature changes may have caused the failure - differential expansions between unlike metals/alloys - which soldered joints are typically used to bridge between?

Cheers, Mike.

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Dagorath
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RE: Substantial temperature

Message 88494 in response to message 88493

Quote:

Substantial temperature changes may have caused the failure - differential expansions between unlike metals/alloys - which soldered joints are typically used to bridge between?

Cheers, Mike.

Common lead/tin solder can be used to join dissimilar metals/alloys, for example steel and copper, when dissimilar metals do not weld easily. Usually dissimilar metals do not weld at all or else the weld is so weak/brittle you're better off using epoxy or even duct tape. Even if the joint was copper-copper, as many electronics joints are, the solder itself would likely be a lead/tin alloy, lead/tin/nickel alloy, silver/tin alloy or some other alloy with coefficient of volumetric expansion different from copper. However, soldering and low temp work has been around for years and engineers know how it works by now and know what to do and what not to do. So, in my opinion, it boils down to poor adherence to procedure (solder jockey error or laziness) followed by quality control mising a bad joint. Add some internal stress due to unequal expansion and pop goes the joint.

Soldering is, in many ways, more difficult than welding. For many metals and their alloys, typical welding temperatures melt or burn off surface contamination (metal oxides and foreign material such as oil and bird poop) long before the metal itself melts. Therefore the flux (if you're using one) removes the contaminants from the weld zone long before the base metals flow and mix to form the joint. That's why top quality welded steel joints are so easy. Aluminum is different because aluminum oxide melts at lower temp than aluminum or any of it alloys. So when welding aluminum you always have to deal with those nasty non-liquid contaminants that don't want to flow away from the molten base metal. The new solid-state power electronics in new inverter based (transformerless) welding power supplies are able to produce waveforms that blast away contaminants better than ever but not everybody is savvy about that so they weld aluminum the old crappy way. This is perhaps what Tullio was referring to when he said there are new and better ways to weld aluminum.

With soldering you have the same problem as you do with aluminum... the surface oxides that do not even come close to melting because soldering temperatures are nowhere near the melting point of metals or their oxides. So you use a corrosive flux to remove oxides but that doesn't always work like it should. Or you use an abrasive to remove oxides/contaminants but then you run the risk of embedding abrasive in the base metals.

Getting back to the difficulty of using radiography (X-ray or gamma ray) to look into the joint to see if there are faults... radiography works when the joint is of fairly uniform cross section and of materials that are equally transparent/opaque to the radiation. If the cross section is non-uniform then the picture will have areas that are over-exposed and/or areas that are under-exposed. If you shoot obliquely through several sections then you get shadows as well as over/under exposure. The result is a pic that tells you nothing. Now imagine the difficulty in getting a decent pic of stranded copper wire impregnated with solder. The variation in density would, in my opinion, make it impossible to get a decent pic of the interior of the joint. You can use ultrasound instead but if the operator doesn't have the skill then on non-uniform joint shapes and densities he'll miss lots of faults and I know that because I've put many of them to the test by purposely leaving a fault in a joint then having it examined with ultra-sound. It's depressing to see how often they fail to detect the fault. BTW, I would either throw the test joint in the trash bin or repair it.

So that's why wings fall off of brand new airplanes and why chemical plants explode :) Be nice to your radiographer and test your ulta-sound tech every day.

mikey
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RE: You can use ultrasound

Message 88495 in response to message 88494

Quote:
You can use ultrasound instead but if the operator doesn't have the skill then on non-uniform joint shapes and densities he'll miss lots of faults and I know that because I've put many of them to the test by purposely leaving a fault in a joint then having it examined with ultra-sound. It's depressing to see how often they fail to detect the fault. BTW, I would either throw the test joint in the trash bin or repair it.
So that's why wings fall off of brand new airplanes and why chemical plants explode :) Be nice to your radiographer and test your ulta-sound tech every day.

When I was a welder many, many, MANY moons ago, we used to use magnets and some fillings to show the bad spots. Then they went to "xraying" the joints, I don't remember what came after that. BUT my point is the test is only as good as the person running the machine! We could do some pretty sloppy welds and the tester would show them to be fine, or conversely we could do some EXCELLENT welds and the tester would make us take them out and redo them!! When you are doing high-pressure welding it does not matter what YOU think, it matters what the TESTER thinks!!

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