*lol* Nice remark about trolls. I think it fits... I can understand everyone who is frustrated about the current situation (believe me, so am I) but Dargorath's postings are really too extreme atm. No wonder the moderators feared a flamewar. There is a difference between voicing criticism and being downright insulting. To me, it's completely plausible what Gary says- meaning that there are enough critical threads out there which weren't deleted. Personally, I wouldn't have deleted said thread, especially as no one apart from the OP seemed to start flaming, but I can understand someone did. Everyone who knows me would confirm that I am very outspoken against censorship, but I don't really see any such tendency here.
That being said, some information about the state of affairs WOULD be nice. Lack of information makes people speculate, and in some cases the speculations won't be what you'd call helpful or friendly. Come on guys... just one little update? ;-)
Greetings, Annika
PS: As for the "racist comments", I am German and I didn't feel insulted by that (as opposed to the parts doubting the intelligence of everyone who goes on crunching Einstein) as I can see it was meant to be ironic and illustrate the opinion that Bruce Allen should have been able to go online and post. While I don't agree with Dargorath's opinion at all- no offence taken from that, at least on my part. By the way, we actually have some very nice broadband connections here, and they are getting cheaper every day. :-) Gonna get a much better one myself the month after next.
EDIT: Just read the posting by Bernd Machenschalk over in another thread. I'm really glad he got back to us, even if the team doesn't have too much definite information atm.
Please don't take this personally, but special clarity is needed here, Annika. This cannot be allowed to pass by uncommented.
The issue is NOT: do I, as an Aussie moderator, take offense at what was said.
Nor is the issue: do you, as a contributor, take offense at what was said.
The issue is: whether what was said is offensive. That certainly does not rely simply upon the fact of a complaint being lodged.
In this case there is no doubt by any reasonable measure. The mention of a racist body, the Gestapo, in Germany, chasing people. Can this be purely delimited as irony or illustration?
Remember this was posted publicly on a board named after which scientist from which ethnic group? Einstein left Germany, in fear of the Gestapo and the like for a better place. Germany has changed a lot since.
Sorry to persist, Annika, but why your parentheses around 'racist comments'?
Is that just a quotation technique that you have used, or do you doubt the application of that term ?
Please do not leave me with an impression that you have some doubt here... :-)
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
No, I meant it as a quote. And actually after reading your post I believe you're right. Probably I'm too used to this kind of comment already.... certainly not from here, I always experienced the Einstein community as extremely friendly and tolerant, but there are other places on the net... Yeah well. As I said, you're probably right with what you said. I appreciate your explaining your point of view and basically, I'm glad most people here have that kind of opinion. Plus, it's probably not all that great for the project's reputation if statements like that pass more or less unnoticed by the moderators and staff. So, of course someone had to react.
No, I meant it as a quote. And actually after reading your post I believe you're right. Probably I'm too used to this kind of comment already.... certainly not from here, I always experienced the Einstein community as extremely friendly and tolerant, but there are other places on the net... Yeah well. As I said, you're probably right with what you said. I appreciate your explaining your point of view and basically, I'm glad most people here have that kind of opinion. Plus, it's probably not all that great for the project's reputation if statements like that pass more or less unnoticed by the moderators and staff. So, of course someone had to react.
Terrific, Annika. :-)
I figured that as likely, as you've always been a great ( and amusing ) contributor. Yes, we must be aware of a large, silent audience hence my 'special clarity' & more so with the topic in question.
Thanks for clearing that up -> three cheers to Annika for her honesty!
Now lets all move on, and note the recent news on the front page too... gosh that database tiger is a tricky one, felt across the projects by report.
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Thanks a lot for your complements, and I 100% agree... let's move on and hope things get back to normal here real soon, both on the technical and communicative side ;-)
The issue is NOT: do I, as an Aussie moderator, take offense at what was said.
Nor is the issue: do you, as a contributor, take offense at what was said.
The issue is: whether what was said is offensive. That certainly does not rely simply upon the fact of a complaint being lodged.
In this case there is no doubt by any reasonable measure. The mention of a racist body, the Gestapo, in Germany, chasing people. Can this be purely delimited as irony or illustration?
Remember this was posted publicly on a board named after which scientist from which ethnic group? Einstein left Germany, in fear of the Gestapo and the like for a better place. Germany has changed a lot since.
While I do not agree with any part of the original hidden post in the least, to consider it as some kind of racist comment is absurd. The sentiment of the original post was that the project leader was not forced away from communications access by some sort of secret police organization (the reference also included the CIA and KGB). While perhaps a poor choice for illustration, the comment clearly had nothing to do with racism and the deletion fo the post appears to have been an overreaction in my opinion.
I remember my reaction when reading the post : oh my Jolly, this one IS angry !
Quite a few people had and have suggested, prayed or demanded that some kind of official statement be issued by the project staff. So did I.
With hindsight, the moderator's decision was right, even if the reasons don't appear to stand scrutiny : the discussion could not be carried at such an emotional level.
-rg-
P.S.
The project staff was eventually able to break away from the-problem-at-hand and post a few forum (danke, Bernd !) and news entries. The tension was relieved. The one they had created by their silence. The pressure they felt because the community was not involved in the problem solving scenario - the news clearly took that pressure off as well, telling : the service will be degraded, there will be interruptions, be patient.
While I do not agree with any part of the original hidden post in the least, to consider it as some kind of racist comment is absurd. The sentiment of the original post was that the project leader was not forced away from communications access by some sort of secret police organization (the reference also included the CIA and KGB). While perhaps a poor choice for illustration, the comment clearly had nothing to do with racism and the deletion fo the post appears to have been an overreaction in my opinion.
Thank you for your expressing your worries, Scott.... :-)
Again, nothing personal to be impugned to you for your opinion, as it is politely given. It is good that people do indeed feel free to express their opinion of my moderating role. It is good in that you have thus given me an opportunity to explain my role here.:-)
I'll freely admit my process of application of the rules of conduct in these forums. It's what I term the 'duck test': If you look like one, talk like one and walk like one then I'll conclude for the purposes of this forum that you are a duck. For this public arena, being almost purely a text based exchange of ideas ( though some do include the odd picture ) that will be my method. While sentiment does hover about, it is a post-diction and not a prerequisite in this process.
Of course, I must apply some 'reasonableness' yardstick when viewing such content. But I must readily admit to a tendency to being far more concerned about the more sensitive side of the spectrum of our readers. Quite a lot are silent lurkers and always will be I expect. The less sensitive ones will probably manage without much of my help.
As I've hinted before, it is ever so much harder to retract nasty comment than give it.
So you are quite right, in this respect: I could well appear to overreact. By my own duck test I am convicted, am I not? I will fully and validly earn an 'overreacter' moniker. It seems I'll have to wear that... :-)
So please dear readers ( and by now you will guess Scott, that I haven't been simply replying to you here ): do use the short checklist that appears on the left when 'Reply To This Post' is selected, and do at least briefly peruse your post from the viewpoint and sensitivities of others.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) As you point out -rg- the posts could be excluded on other grounds anyway. You'll note my specific reply to the poster mentioned those. My duck test does have orthogonal components... :-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Well thanks for illumiinating your moderation rationale, but not really necessary since anyone who's been here for more than 5 minutes knows you're a straight shooter when it comes to intervention.
I had read the post in question, and although was well written generally, the paragraph in question was a little convoluted. I had to read it twice before deciding Godwin's Law didn't apply. ;-)
Nevertheless, I was kind of surprised the whole thread got modded but assumed that it was because the general trend of conversation got ugly because of that paragraph, and it better to kill it outright than have it drag on or spin out of control.
Either the root cause for the post in the first place is hopefully history, so no harm, no foul. :-)
*lol* Nice remark about
)
*lol* Nice remark about trolls. I think it fits... I can understand everyone who is frustrated about the current situation (believe me, so am I) but Dargorath's postings are really too extreme atm. No wonder the moderators feared a flamewar. There is a difference between voicing criticism and being downright insulting. To me, it's completely plausible what Gary says- meaning that there are enough critical threads out there which weren't deleted. Personally, I wouldn't have deleted said thread, especially as no one apart from the OP seemed to start flaming, but I can understand someone did. Everyone who knows me would confirm that I am very outspoken against censorship, but I don't really see any such tendency here.
That being said, some information about the state of affairs WOULD be nice. Lack of information makes people speculate, and in some cases the speculations won't be what you'd call helpful or friendly. Come on guys... just one little update? ;-)
Greetings, Annika
PS: As for the "racist comments", I am German and I didn't feel insulted by that (as opposed to the parts doubting the intelligence of everyone who goes on crunching Einstein) as I can see it was meant to be ironic and illustrate the opinion that Bruce Allen should have been able to go online and post. While I don't agree with Dargorath's opinion at all- no offence taken from that, at least on my part. By the way, we actually have some very nice broadband connections here, and they are getting cheaper every day. :-) Gonna get a much better one myself the month after next.
EDIT: Just read the posting by Bernd Machenschalk over in another thread. I'm really glad he got back to us, even if the team doesn't have too much definite information atm.
RE: As for the "racist
)
Please don't take this personally, but special clarity is needed here, Annika. This cannot be allowed to pass by uncommented.
The issue is NOT: do I, as an Aussie moderator, take offense at what was said.
Nor is the issue: do you, as a contributor, take offense at what was said.
The issue is: whether what was said is offensive. That certainly does not rely simply upon the fact of a complaint being lodged.
In this case there is no doubt by any reasonable measure. The mention of a racist body, the Gestapo, in Germany, chasing people. Can this be purely delimited as irony or illustration?
Remember this was posted publicly on a board named after which scientist from which ethnic group? Einstein left Germany, in fear of the Gestapo and the like for a better place. Germany has changed a lot since.
Sorry to persist, Annika, but why your parentheses around 'racist comments'?
Is that just a quotation technique that you have used, or do you doubt the application of that term ?
Please do not leave me with an impression that you have some doubt here... :-)
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
No, I meant it as a quote.
)
No, I meant it as a quote. And actually after reading your post I believe you're right. Probably I'm too used to this kind of comment already.... certainly not from here, I always experienced the Einstein community as extremely friendly and tolerant, but there are other places on the net... Yeah well. As I said, you're probably right with what you said. I appreciate your explaining your point of view and basically, I'm glad most people here have that kind of opinion. Plus, it's probably not all that great for the project's reputation if statements like that pass more or less unnoticed by the moderators and staff. So, of course someone had to react.
RE: No, I meant it as a
)
Terrific, Annika. :-)
I figured that as likely, as you've always been a great ( and amusing ) contributor. Yes, we must be aware of a large, silent audience hence my 'special clarity' & more so with the topic in question.
Thanks for clearing that up -> three cheers to Annika for her honesty!
Now lets all move on, and note the recent news on the front page too... gosh that database tiger is a tricky one, felt across the projects by report.
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Thanks a lot for your
)
Thanks a lot for your complements, and I 100% agree... let's move on and hope things get back to normal here real soon, both on the technical and communicative side ;-)
RE: Yes, we must be aware
)
As a member of the large, silent audience, I completely agree.
(Err... large, mostly silent audience, perhaps).
Mahray
RE: RE: As for the
)
While I do not agree with any part of the original hidden post in the least, to consider it as some kind of racist comment is absurd. The sentiment of the original post was that the project leader was not forced away from communications access by some sort of secret police organization (the reference also included the CIA and KGB). While perhaps a poor choice for illustration, the comment clearly had nothing to do with racism and the deletion fo the post appears to have been an overreaction in my opinion.
Seconding Scott. I
)
Seconding Scott.
I remember my reaction when reading the post : oh my Jolly, this one IS angry !
Quite a few people had and have suggested, prayed or demanded that some kind of official statement be issued by the project staff. So did I.
With hindsight, the moderator's decision was right, even if the reasons don't appear to stand scrutiny : the discussion could not be carried at such an emotional level.
-rg-
P.S.
The project staff was eventually able to break away from the-problem-at-hand and post a few forum (danke, Bernd !) and news entries. The tension was relieved. The one they had created by their silence. The pressure they felt because the community was not involved in the problem solving scenario - the news clearly took that pressure off as well, telling : the service will be degraded, there will be interruptions, be patient.
RE: While I do not agree
)
Thank you for your expressing your worries, Scott.... :-)
Again, nothing personal to be impugned to you for your opinion, as it is politely given. It is good that people do indeed feel free to express their opinion of my moderating role. It is good in that you have thus given me an opportunity to explain my role here.:-)
I'll freely admit my process of application of the rules of conduct in these forums. It's what I term the 'duck test': If you look like one, talk like one and walk like one then I'll conclude for the purposes of this forum that you are a duck. For this public arena, being almost purely a text based exchange of ideas ( though some do include the odd picture ) that will be my method. While sentiment does hover about, it is a post-diction and not a prerequisite in this process.
Of course, I must apply some 'reasonableness' yardstick when viewing such content. But I must readily admit to a tendency to being far more concerned about the more sensitive side of the spectrum of our readers. Quite a lot are silent lurkers and always will be I expect. The less sensitive ones will probably manage without much of my help.
As I've hinted before, it is ever so much harder to retract nasty comment than give it.
So you are quite right, in this respect: I could well appear to overreact. By my own duck test I am convicted, am I not? I will fully and validly earn an 'overreacter' moniker. It seems I'll have to wear that... :-)
So please dear readers ( and by now you will guess Scott, that I haven't been simply replying to you here ): do use the short checklist that appears on the left when 'Reply To This Post' is selected, and do at least briefly peruse your post from the viewpoint and sensitivities of others.
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) As you point out -rg- the posts could be excluded on other grounds anyway. You'll note my specific reply to the poster mentioned those. My duck test does have orthogonal components... :-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
LOL... Well thanks for
)
LOL...
Well thanks for illumiinating your moderation rationale, but not really necessary since anyone who's been here for more than 5 minutes knows you're a straight shooter when it comes to intervention.
I had read the post in question, and although was well written generally, the paragraph in question was a little convoluted. I had to read it twice before deciding Godwin's Law didn't apply. ;-)
Nevertheless, I was kind of surprised the whole thread got modded but assumed that it was because the general trend of conversation got ugly because of that paragraph, and it better to kill it outright than have it drag on or spin out of control.
Either the root cause for the post in the first place is hopefully history, so no harm, no foul. :-)
Alinator