Nope it comes down to profit, they buy it from you and then resell it to you or someone else at 4 times the price they paid you for it, no profit for you unless you make massively more power than you need.
Surely they'd want to buy it from us at the same rate as they buy it from a power station?
mikey wrote:
Quote:
Survival of the fittest.
Sorry politicians don't get their kickbacks that way
Not sure what you mean.
In the US almost no politician does things 'for the good' of the country, state, district or the people they represent for free, they get lobbied by this or that group all the time with each trying to get said politician to vote for what they want instead of what some other group wants, those groups offer 'kickbacks' of cash, trips, donations in their name to their charity something to sway their way of thinking over to their position on the subject.
Quote:
mikey wrote:
California has ALOT of solar panels but today they cost ALOT more than they used to when most panels were installed, taxes, permits and other government hoops have doubled the costs in some cases making payback in the 40 year range instead of the 20 year range most States are promoting. Of course after 20 years your panels will need replacing anyway and the new panels will probably need wiring and electronics upgrades to handle the higher output of the new panels but who's counting.
Permits? Just stick them on your roof, it's your roof. It's not like you're building something which could obscure someone's view.
In the Us they can make you take them down or they will take them down for you and you will pay the company that did it. Rules are rules and everybody has their own rules and each rule comes with it's own set of things they can do to you if you violate them.
Quote:
mikey wrote:
You need to think big government Kate, they need to take their cut and the solar industry is prime for picking right now. Upgraded insulation is also a prime place they are adding additional fees as the Federal Government is giving people tax breaks if they upgrade their insulation and/or heat pumps. Homeowners are left standing with a mailbox full of bills and wondering where all the money went that everyone said they would save by doing the upgrades.
Just like the smart meters and all their other crazy ideas. Smart meters cost €800 to install a pair of electricity and gas meters. What an utter waste of government money.
Yup exactly, though in the US alot of the Smart Meters are subsidized by the Federal Government thru grant programs to cut back on the need for more power plants, in peach usage times they will cut your water heater, heat pump or a/c unit off for as little as 10 minutes to as much as an hour to save the grid from having brown outs which is when the power company turns off sections of the grid to protect the rest of it. 10 years ago California went thru A BUNCH of those because the power company wasn't upgrading their infrastructure and the transmission lines couldn't handle all the power people needed, so they would shut down a section for an hour or so then shut down a different section and bring the first one back up again. even the large business users were not immune and the power company rarely told people when they were going to be shut down. With all the people putting solar panels on their roofs and the power company upgrading their wires that doesn't happen as much as it used too.
Some of the Smart Meters in the US don't flat cut the power off they just reduce the amount of power you can use during the time it's in effect, the power company will actually give you a credit on your bill every month, not very much though, to let them throttle the power to your home during the late afternoons for example when everyone has their a/c systems working hard to keep cool. If you have a non Sunny area in your backyard for example that has nice breezes you might do that because you might just sit out there anyway. Or if you are at work and don't care if they throttle the a/c when you aren't there take the credit and move on.
(1) Electricity is extremely expensive. (2) Electricity was extremely cheap recently, bearable now and is becoming increasingly cheaper. Both statements (1) and (2) are true—in Germany. (And I suspect price explosion in California has similar causes than in Germany: ideological politics)
Liberalized market: Retail price consists of generation price or procurement price from energy exchange, grid usage fees, other fees and taxes.
Until about 2016...2020 (before start of Russia's war) average price on electricity exchanges in Germany reached historic minimums (base load future, following year: 0.035 €/kWh ($0.0375/kWh) (like from textbook of economics). Extremely cheap. Russia's war led to a short shock (0.60...1.00 €/kWh ($0.64...1.07/kWh) baseload future; extremes only for days...weeks). After replacing Russian gas with spot market LNG price level normalized. More expensive than before, but bearable. The outlook is continuously falling maybe due to long term LNG contracts (baseload future 2024: 0.15€/kWh ($0.16), 2027: €0.09/kWh ($0.096)).
mikey wrote:
UNLESS like in some States in the US the electrical utility is assigned by the State and NO other company can compete for the residents of the State. Now that comes with a rate commission that goes thru the companies books every year and ensures that they get to make a profit to pay raises, attract new people, expand their infrastructure etc but it also means that when someone makes a better electric panel it means very little as the price they pay for your unused energy is also regulated at something like 1/4 the rate they sell electricity to the consumer.
Interesting that in the home of capitalism there are still regional energy monopolies. Our markets are fully liberated in most countries. You choose any of a hundred providers (who own power plants or are traders only).
(feeding unused energy back to the grid is extremely bureaucratic here (supplier registration, provider contract, separate meter (monthly costs), tax filing). Either you do it small-scaled without payment (so called "balcony solar", max. 600W), or on a larger scale, worth the effort: tens of kilowatts on larger house or barn roofs)
Grid usage fees, other fees and taxes are 100% caused and regulated by politics. These are exploding in Germany—the main cause for extreme prices. Ideologically justified and government planned solar and wind power expansion without market principles which balance demand and supply builds up large overcapacities, overproduction and requires gigantic transmission grid expansion (government plans estimate: hundreds of billion euros). And then: Solar provides 0% (night), wind 2% (calm) secured capacity. Therefore it needs ~98% backup capacity (gas turbine plants) for few winter weeks and calm summer nights. I don't say solar and wind power is stupid. It generates vast amounts of cheap energy and will replace coal and lignite as soon as the increasing price of CO2 certificates makes them uneconomical. But needed backup capacity corresponds to ~98% of winter peak load, many times that of former gas-fired peak load plants (supplying peak minus base load). But again, due to the very high annular wind and solar power generation, such backup gas turbine plants run less than 500 hours a year. No economic incentive to build them. Operation on the market is in deficit for the whole year (few profitable high-price hours, majority deficit low-price hours: expensive gas vs. cheap wind/solar). They'll require high, permanent subsidies for construction and operation. Alternative is: blackout or massive load shedding in winter, in summer nights. But there's the European grid. But if it's cold, dark and calm in Germany it's often so allover central Europe, but most countries plan to import their needs. Crazy.
Maybe the SmartGrid? full-flexible consumer prices, full-flexible demand (I don't believe it; too complex, too expensive, majority of demand is inflexible). But solar and wind power surplus can be stored somehow in batteries or pumped hydro? ...to stabilize the grid (tens of MWh batteries), for operating reserves (1500 MW * 15min = 375 MWh battery), eventually day & night (delta: 25 GW * ~8h = 200 GWh ...VeryBigBattery). But NEVER for seasonal storage (6...9 weeks of full load: 60 GW * 60 d = ~86 TWh. That's 86,000,000 MWh... 1 million * 86 MWh grid scale batteries). That's impossible due to space and resource requirements. Costs would be astronomical; So hundreds of 100% subsidized gas power plants are orders of magnitude cheaper. I don't trust in hydrogen storage either as long as efficiency: power->hydrogen->power is less than 20%. All of this increases network usage fees and other fees which become majority of the retail electricity price. That's the idiocy of today's German energy policy.
Countries with a non-ideological, well thought-out energy policy with a balanced mix of solar, wind, nuclear!, hydro, gas... also have rising prices (phasing out coal & lignite is not for free), but no excesses which you can witness in Germany. To the opposite: Our extreme prices attract Terawatt hours of Nordic hydro energy. Norwegian and Swede suppliers earn a fortune. Norwegian's government is increasingly concerned observing the growing amounts its state owned utility Norsk Hydro has to deposit as collateral on electricity exchanges. These collaterals begin to reach dimensions equal to the domestic product of the small nation (half a dozen 1.4..2 GW HVDC links to UK, DK, NL, DE).
Nordic governments warn they'll delay or deny further HVDC links to the continent. These should make power supply safer for them during droughts. Instead they export vast amounts most of the year. This way their local energy prices skyrocketed too. (Norwegians were accustomed to heat their patios by 10kW infrared radiators with ultra-cheap hydro energy. I've seen it myself years ago on Lofoten Islands, 100mi north of the Polar Circle.) Now stupid German money outbids them.
UNLESS like in some States in the US the electrical utility is assigned by the State and NO other company can compete for the residents of the State. Now that comes with a rate commission that goes thru the companies books every year and ensures that they get to make a profit to pay raises, attract new people, expand their infrastructure etc but it also means that when someone makes a better electric panel it means very little as the price they pay for your unused energy is also regulated at something like 1/4 the rate they sell electricity to the consumer.
Interesting that in the home of capitalism there are still regional energy monopolies. Our markets are fully liberated in most countries. You choose any of a hundred providers (who own power plants or are traders only).
(feeding unused energy back to the grid is extremely bureaucratic here (supplier registration, provider contract, separate meter (monthly costs), tax filing).
I think it's a throwback to the days of old, though still alive in places like New York City in the case of steam for radiator heat, cooking etc, where the State provided the power or you didn't get any power. They are unwilling to cut the reins of what they see as a revenue positive thing instead of a revenue negative thing, they also think of private companies cutting people off in time of bad weather for whatever reason and the State getting the 'look what you did' news from the press. Yes they can retroactively control companies that do bad things but by then it's too late as the press is on to a newer scandal.
Two of my co-workers (a married couple) live in an area that Alabama Power refuses to serve. It's a long story that isn't worth telling here. But, they use rooftop solar cells as their main energy source. They have batteries to store excess electrical power in order to make up for periods with limited sunshine. But, they also have a 24 KW generator (powered by propane) that provides power when the batteries run out. They also use propane for cooking, forced air heat, and hot water. They drilled a well for drinking water.
Several of my cousins in rural Hawaii also "live off the grid". They live in remote areas without any utility service at all. They use solar and propane power. They also use cisterns and ultrafiltration systems to recover rainwater for drinking, cooking, bathing, and the like.
Likewise, my mother grew up in a remote home that lacked running water, electricity, or pipeline gas. Many years after she grew up and left that home, two of my young cousins were killed in that home when gasoline and propane tanks stored underneath the house caught fire and trapped my cousins inside the home.
Stories like those keep me from complaining too much when the electricity or wired broadband service goes out at home.
"I was born in a small town, and I live in a small town." - John Mellencamp
Two of my co-workers (a married couple) live in an area that Alabama Power refuses to serve. It's a long story that isn't worth telling here. But, they use rooftop solar cells as their main energy source. They have batteries to store excess electrical power in order to make up for periods with limited sunshine. But, they also have a 24 KW generator (powered by propane) that provides power when the batteries run out. They also use propane for cooking, forced air heat, and hot water. They drilled a well for drinking water.
Several of my cousins in rural Hawaii also "live off the grid". They live in remote areas without any utility service at all. They use solar and propane power. They also use cisterns and ultrafiltration systems to recover rainwater for drinking, cooking, bathing, and the like.
Likewise, my mother grew up in a remote home that lacked running water, electricity, or pipeline gas. Many years after she grew up and left that home, two of my young cousins were killed in that home when gasoline and propane tanks stored underneath the house caught fire and trapped my cousins inside the home.
Stories like those keep me from complaining too much when the electricity or wired broadband service goes out at home.
Here at the beach in North Carolina about 35 miles west of me is a large area of people who are soooo poor they can't afford to move from their collapsing ancestral homes and who have no electricity, no water and no indoor plumbing. It's inhabited by Black people and American Indians and the World has passed them by even though some live within shouting distance of I-95 which goes from Florida to Maine!! A few years ago a hurricane hit that area and the people are STILL trying to recover and get the damaged wood replaced, the State has zero plans to address the drainage issues that cause the yearly flooding that goes on there as there is no benefit to the politicians to do so, ie no constituent money to grease the path.
I can't imagine living like that and hope that never happens to anyone I know either!!
I think it's a throwback to the days of old, though still alive in places like New York City in the case of steam for radiator heat, cooking etc, where the State provided the power or you didn't get any power. They are unwilling to cut the reins of what they see as a revenue positive thing instead of a revenue negative thing, they also think of private companies cutting people off in time of bad weather for whatever reason and the State getting the 'look what you did' news from the press. Yes they can retroactively control companies that do bad things but by then it's too late as the press is on to a newer scandal.
Here, private customers must be supplied with gas and electricity without interruption, even if their providers don't deliver (don't feeding enough into the grid in time; resp. didn't buy enough at energy exchanges). A customer then falls back to a replacement tariff of the local network/grid operator. Such tariffs are more expensive than regular ones. Corporate customers can be disconnected after 30 days if they fail to get a new contract. Criminal providers or aggressive traders are rare. Gas network and grid operators immediately kick them out of the market and they know. But when Russia's war started, the gas price shock lead some black sheep to dump their loss-making long-term contracts by filing for bankruptcy. The more solvent sheeps quit all customer contracts but at least supplied them for the notice period.
For district heating (hot water networks) we only have municipal monopolies.
I think it's a throwback to the days of old, though still alive in places like New York City in the case of steam for radiator heat, cooking etc, where the State provided the power or you didn't get any power. They are unwilling to cut the reins of what they see as a revenue positive thing instead of a revenue negative thing, they also think of private companies cutting people off in time of bad weather for whatever reason and the State getting the 'look what you did' news from the press. Yes they can retroactively control companies that do bad things but by then it's too late as the press is on to a newer scandal.
Here, private customers must be supplied with gas and electricity without interruption, even if their providers don't deliver (don't feeding enough into the grid in time; resp. didn't buy enough at energy exchanges). A customer then falls back to a replacement tariff of the local network/grid operator. Such tariffs are more expensive than regular ones. Corporate customers can be disconnected after 30 days if they fail to get a new contract. Criminal providers or aggressive traders are rare. Gas network and grid operators immediately kick them out of the market and they know. But when Russia's war started, the gas price shock lead some black sheep to dump their loss-making long-term contracts by filing for bankruptcy. The more solvent sheeps quit all customer contracts but at least supplied them for the notice period.
For district heating (hot water networks) we only have municipal monopolies.
Our State regulated utilities water, sewer, electricity, steam or gas are required by their contract to provide service to all customers who sign up and can only dump them if they have a history of non payment and several months of non payment are required to go thru the process.
Here at the beach in North Carolina about 35 miles west of me is a large area of people who are soooo poor they can't afford to move from their collapsing ancestral homes and who have no electricity, no water and no indoor plumbing. It's inhabited by Black people and American Indians and the World has passed them by even though some live within shouting distance of I-95 which goes from Florida to Maine!! A few years ago a hurricane hit that area and the people are STILL trying to recover and get the damaged wood replaced, the State has zero plans to address the drainage issues that cause the yearly flooding that goes on there as there is no benefit to the politicians to do so, ie no constituent money to grease the path.
I can't imagine living like that and hope that never happens to anyone I know either!!
Isn't there the 4th power (press, media) to address such problems? What's the reasons why such settlements get into such poor conditions? Wild settlement or state-approved villlage? (East coast was settled centuries ago, after which local administrations surely regulated further settlements). I can imagine it's difficult to improve precarious social conditions. Supposedly, it took years or decades until getting this worse? If they don't have a perspective to earn sufficient money, then it's maybe the state who should help them move elsewhere to available houses where situation isn't this bad. I also understand administrations who aren't keen to subsidize settlements without a future. Different story for hurricanes. Victims need help to repair damage but the state may also want to plan: either to give up endangered settlements or build some basic protecting infrastructure against the worst damage.
The question here is, is it a public obligation to supply gas, water and electricity? In Germany it is, within closed, compact settlements (villages founded centuries ago) for water, sewage, electricity, mail service, landline telephone, public transport (maybe just two buses at work days, ordered until 6pm previous day), but not for gas or broadband. For sewage, state enforces its treatment only. You have to pay full costs.
Stories like those keep me from complaining too much when the electricity or wired broadband service goes out at home.
That's my point. I can't believe it's the future to do everything yourself because it's so cheap to have your own solar panels, your own batteries, your own water well. That's the 19th century, not 21st. If grid or network bound supply may becomes too expensive or there is no grid, no network. Reason is bad decision making by politicians.
Kate Ewart wrote: mikey
)
In the US almost no politician does things 'for the good' of the country, state, district or the people they represent for free, they get lobbied by this or that group all the time with each trying to get said politician to vote for what they want instead of what some other group wants, those groups offer 'kickbacks' of cash, trips, donations in their name to their charity something to sway their way of thinking over to their position on the subject.
In the Us they can make you take them down or they will take them down for you and you will pay the company that did it. Rules are rules and everybody has their own rules and each rule comes with it's own set of things they can do to you if you violate them.
Yup exactly, though in the US alot of the Smart Meters are subsidized by the Federal Government thru grant programs to cut back on the need for more power plants, in peach usage times they will cut your water heater, heat pump or a/c unit off for as little as 10 minutes to as much as an hour to save the grid from having brown outs which is when the power company turns off sections of the grid to protect the rest of it. 10 years ago California went thru A BUNCH of those because the power company wasn't upgrading their infrastructure and the transmission lines couldn't handle all the power people needed, so they would shut down a section for an hour or so then shut down a different section and bring the first one back up again. even the large business users were not immune and the power company rarely told people when they were going to be shut down. With all the people putting solar panels on their roofs and the power company upgrading their wires that doesn't happen as much as it used too.
Some of the Smart Meters in the US don't flat cut the power off they just reduce the amount of power you can use during the time it's in effect, the power company will actually give you a credit on your bill every month, not very much though, to let them throttle the power to your home during the late afternoons for example when everyone has their a/c systems working hard to keep cool. If you have a non Sunny area in your backyard for example that has nice breezes you might do that because you might just sit out there anyway. Or if you are at work and don't care if they throttle the a/c when you aren't there take the credit and move on.
Kate Ewart wrote: What you
)
Those are customer accounts. They are not vendor accounts.
Sounds like you have never done book keeping
The term: "electricity price"
)
Scrooge McDuck
)
I think it's a throwback to the days of old, though still alive in places like New York City in the case of steam for radiator heat, cooking etc, where the State provided the power or you didn't get any power. They are unwilling to cut the reins of what they see as a revenue positive thing instead of a revenue negative thing, they also think of private companies cutting people off in time of bad weather for whatever reason and the State getting the 'look what you did' news from the press. Yes they can retroactively control companies that do bad things but by then it's too late as the press is on to a newer scandal.
Two of my co-workers (a
)
Two of my co-workers (a married couple) live in an area that Alabama Power refuses to serve. It's a long story that isn't worth telling here. But, they use rooftop solar cells as their main energy source. They have batteries to store excess electrical power in order to make up for periods with limited sunshine. But, they also have a 24 KW generator (powered by propane) that provides power when the batteries run out. They also use propane for cooking, forced air heat, and hot water. They drilled a well for drinking water.
Several of my cousins in rural Hawaii also "live off the grid". They live in remote areas without any utility service at all. They use solar and propane power. They also use cisterns and ultrafiltration systems to recover rainwater for drinking, cooking, bathing, and the like.
Likewise, my mother grew up in a remote home that lacked running water, electricity, or pipeline gas. Many years after she grew up and left that home, two of my young cousins were killed in that home when gasoline and propane tanks stored underneath the house caught fire and trapped my cousins inside the home.
Stories like those keep me from complaining too much when the electricity or wired broadband service goes out at home.
"I was born in a small town, and I live in a small town." - John Mellencamp
Tigers_Dave wrote: Two of my
)
Here at the beach in North Carolina about 35 miles west of me is a large area of people who are soooo poor they can't afford to move from their collapsing ancestral homes and who have no electricity, no water and no indoor plumbing. It's inhabited by Black people and American Indians and the World has passed them by even though some live within shouting distance of I-95 which goes from Florida to Maine!! A few years ago a hurricane hit that area and the people are STILL trying to recover and get the damaged wood replaced, the State has zero plans to address the drainage issues that cause the yearly flooding that goes on there as there is no benefit to the politicians to do so, ie no constituent money to grease the path.
I can't imagine living like that and hope that never happens to anyone I know either!!
mikey schrieb: I think it's
)
Here, private customers must be supplied with gas and electricity without interruption, even if their providers don't deliver (don't feeding enough into the grid in time; resp. didn't buy enough at energy exchanges). A customer then falls back to a replacement tariff of the local network/grid operator. Such tariffs are more expensive than regular ones. Corporate customers can be disconnected after 30 days if they fail to get a new contract. Criminal providers or aggressive traders are rare. Gas network and grid operators immediately kick them out of the market and they know. But when Russia's war started, the gas price shock lead some black sheep to dump their loss-making long-term contracts by filing for bankruptcy. The more solvent sheeps quit all customer contracts but at least supplied them for the notice period.
For district heating (hot water networks) we only have municipal monopolies.
Scrooge McDuck wrote: mikey
)
Our State regulated utilities water, sewer, electricity, steam or gas are required by their contract to provide service to all customers who sign up and can only dump them if they have a history of non payment and several months of non payment are required to go thru the process.
mikey schrieb:Here at the
)
Isn't there the 4th power (press, media) to address such problems? What's the reasons why such settlements get into such poor conditions? Wild settlement or state-approved villlage? (East coast was settled centuries ago, after which local administrations surely regulated further settlements). I can imagine it's difficult to improve precarious social conditions. Supposedly, it took years or decades until getting this worse? If they don't have a perspective to earn sufficient money, then it's maybe the state who should help them move elsewhere to available houses where situation isn't this bad. I also understand administrations who aren't keen to subsidize settlements without a future. Different story for hurricanes. Victims need help to repair damage but the state may also want to plan: either to give up endangered settlements or build some basic protecting infrastructure against the worst damage.
The question here is, is it a public obligation to supply gas, water and electricity? In Germany it is, within closed, compact settlements (villages founded centuries ago) for water, sewage, electricity, mail service, landline telephone, public transport (maybe just two buses at work days, ordered until 6pm previous day), but not for gas or broadband. For sewage, state enforces its treatment only. You have to pay full costs.
Tigers_Dave schrieb: Stories
)
That's my point. I can't believe it's the future to do everything yourself because it's so cheap to have your own solar panels, your own batteries, your own water well. That's the 19th century, not 21st. If grid or network bound supply may becomes too expensive or there is no grid, no network. Reason is bad decision making by politicians.